Katie Glenn, an attorney with Americans United for Life, addressed the exchange between justices and attorneys during the oral arguments of Dobbs vs. Jackson. Aired 12.11.21
ICL 2021-12-11 Dobbs v. Jackson Case Analysis
Scott Kumpf [00:00:06]
This is "I Choose Life News and Views" sponsored by Indiana Right to Life and Right to Life of Northeast Indiana, committed to defending innocent human life, for all people, of all ages. "I Choose Life News and Views" is produced by Bott radio network in Fort Wayne, Indiana.
Cathie Humbarger [00:00:23]
This is Cathie Humbarger. Thank you so much for joining us today for "I Choose Life News and Views."
Cathie Humbarger [00:00:30]
If you tuned in last week, you heard a discussion that I had with Scott come up here at the radio station about my impressions of the events that took place in front of the Supreme Court, at the occasion of the Dobbs abortion case being argued at the Supreme Court. And as I readily told you last week, I am not a legal expert. But our returning guest today is. Katie Glenn is the Government Affairs Council for Americans United for Life. Thank you so much for joining us today, Katie.
Katie Glenn [00:01:08]
Always great to be with you.
Cathie Humbarger [00:01:10]
Lots and lots going on. It seems like an eternity since the Texas Heartbeat case, or at least the technicalities of that case were heard by the Supreme Court Justices. Could you just remind our listeners what that case is all about and where we stand? I attempted to find out this morning in preparation for this recording to determine exactly where things stand and I must admit I'm lost. So help us understand what the case is all about and where it stands at this point.
Katie Glenn [00:01:42]
So in 1973--we'll go back very quickly--in Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court said, there is a nationwide constitutional right to abortion. It doesn't matter that a number of states have banned abortion in their state. They prohibited it under the common law and then they codified that. Doesn't matter. The Federal Constitution says, there is a right to abortion and that right sort of shifts. In the first trimester of pregnancy the woman can get an abortion for any reason. The second trimester, it's a little bit fuzzier. And then the third trimester at that point, you know, the child is viable which means they can live outside the womb. And so the state is free to prohibit abortion if it so chooses. And the American people never agreed with this. The March for Life spawned out of this. There were attempts to overrule this through Constitutional Amendment immediately. So the court kept having to revisit this. In 1992, a case came back called Planned Parenthood v. Casey, where they threw out the trimester framework and they created a new framework that they just called "viability," where they said, basically, for the first half of pregnancy, a woman can get an abortion without limits. The state cannot prohibit abortion during that first half of pregnancy. And then, you know, at some point around 24 weeks, the child can live outside the womb on their own or, you know, with assistance, from the NICU obviously. And so, you can prohibit abortion. But a number of states, including Indiana, who passed a law based on the child's ability to feel pain, and including Mississippi, that passed a law at 15 weeks on several different compelling interests that the state had, said "we are not satisfied with this limit." And they kept trying to push it. And so, that's the case that's now before us in the Supreme Court. It's that Mississippi passed a law prohibiting abortion at 15 weeks, which is very clearly ahead of that viability line. And they say "viability shouldn't be the only thing that the court takes into consideration. In fact, you know, these types of questions are better left to the legislators and to the people who get a say in the legislature in a way that they just don't in the Supreme Court. And so you really need to just undo what you did 50 years ago, overturn Roe and send this back to the people to decide what policy is right for them."
Cathie Humbarger [00:03:59]
So in Texas case, what exactly is that all about? And isn't it interesting that the original Roe decision came out of a case in Texas and here we are again all these years later talking about the Texas Heartbeat law. Tell us a little bit about where that stands this year.
Katie Glenn [00:04:17]
Texas passed a heartbeat law saying, you can't do an abortion after there is an audible, visible heartbeat on the ultrasound, and they did it a little bit differently. Instead of the state enforcing it, they created this private right of action and said the state's not involved with enforcing this. Individuals can file civil lawsuits. It's something that has been done in different ways in other contexts. For example, if you feel that your civil rights have been violated in some way,tThere are in some states, you can sue on that basis, but it's very new in this space of abortion law and the courts aren't really sure what to do with it. They're not sure whether the state is an actor involved, and that's what went up to the Supreme Court, is this idea of who can sue and how they can sue. So, the Supreme Court granted and really rushed oral arguments on the Texas law.
Cathie Humbarger [00:05:07]
Were you surprised that they heard it so quickly. That is unusual, isn't it?
Katie Glenn [00:05:12]
It's definitely an unusual and I feel for the attorney whos' weekend were ruined forever to work on it. It's definitely unusual. I think a lot of people expected that the reason they did it was so that they could turn around a very quick argument on the Texas case and sort of clear it out of the way before oral arguments on Dobbs, this Mississippi case, because right now Texas law is in effect and abortions are being prohibited around six to seven weeks. So that itself is, you know, a clear violation of Casey. It's also a huge win because lives are being saved every single day.
Cathie Humbarger [00:05:49]
Well, in my opinion, any day an abortion facility is not doing abortions as a win for the unborn babies, whose lives were at risk. Regardless of how this case turns out babies have been saved over these weeks since September 1st when the law went into effect.
Katie Glenn [00:06:10]
Absolutely. The abortion rate--Texas is one of those few states that puts out their numbers every month so we can actually already see this, And their abortion rate has been cut in half from last year.
Cathie Humbarger [00:06:21]
Wow.
Katie Glenn [00:06:21]
That's is over 2,000 babies being saved every single month and that is a win.
Cathie Humbarger [00:06:26]
Absolutely. Yes. Yes, and and we'll never know this side of Heaven who those children are and what their lives looked like, but they're are lives that have been spared. So, I think it's a win no matter what happens after this.
Katie Glenn [00:06:42]
Yeah. And, every single day that that Texas law remains in effect, it is proving that this is not some kind of emergency. That's what the pro-abortion side was saying, "This is an emergency. The Supreme Court must stop this."
Cathie Humbarger [00:06:54]
Right.
Katie Glenn [00:06:55]
Well, at some point between September 1st and today, three months later, you know, this is no longer an emergency and women and the Texans are adjusting. And I think we're getting a good glimpse of what post-Roe society can look like and it means a lot more people stepping up and helping their neighbors.
Cathie Humbarger [00:07:12]
Absolutely. Well, let's shift gears here, just a little bit and talk about this monumental historical case that was argued before the Supreme Court on December 1st. This is just absolutely amazing in my mind. I've been in pro-life advocacy since 1985, Katie, probably before you were even born. But this is the most significant event that I have seen in the amount of time that I've been involved. Tell us a little bit about what Dobbs v. Jackson is all about.
Katie Glenn [00:07:48]
Well, I mean, this is really taking direct aim at Roe v. Wade. The state of Mississippi was super bold and courageous, and they said "All of these tests are tied together. It's a jumbled up mess. The people don't understand how to work it. Lawmakers can't weigh in and enough is enough."
Cathie Humbarger [00:08:05]
Great.
Katie Glenn [00:08:06]
And so they really took a direct stand against Roe, and I think one of the great things about having two hours of oral arguments, which is almost double what it was put on the calendar for, is that we really got to hear in great depth, so many of the issues at stake here and the arguments against abortion.
Cathie Humbarger [00:08:26]
Well, this is just absolutely amazing and I am guessing that you were probably in the room that I was in Wednesday evening,tThe same day as the oral arguments, when some of these issues were discussed by attorney general Fitch from Mississippi, and the optimism in the legal minds of Witcher 1 is almost palpable. Why is there so much optimism about the outcome of this case?
Katie Glenn [00:08:55]
Well, I think, you know what we saw from the pro-abortion side, which was the abortion clinics that sued, and the Biden administration had their Attorney General weigh in, was just more of the same. It was 'Stare Decisis means we should just leave it alone because it's old and it's old, so we should leave it alone." Like they didn't really make any compelling arguments for why this is granted in the Constitution. And Justice Thomas in particular, kept saying, "Like, what is the right at stake here? Like, please, like tie it to the Constitution," right? They really couldn't. It wasn't ever grounded in the Constitution 50 years ago.
Cathie Humbarger [00:09:32]
Right!
Katie Glenn [00:09:33]
And people you know as disparate as Justice Clarence Thomas and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg agree on that.
Cathie Humbarger [00:09:39]
Right, right. But that's amazing in itself. And you know a phrase that we hear often, Katie, about other issues is "Follow the science, "follow the science, follow the science." Fifty years ago, the intricacies of ultrasound and the technology that we have available to us, just was maybe a dream or hadn't even been thought of by those who have developed that technology since. So, it seems entirely appropriate in a situation like this where we're talking about lives of innocent unborn boys and girls, to take a look at this again through the lens of what we know. And the argument that we don't know when life begins is absolutely a fallacy. You only have to pick up a textbook for any medical school talking about embryology. And it says, clearly, life begins at conception. Now, we understand that over the years we've had to nibble around that, but it seems entirely appropriate to me that these Justices take a look at this.
Cathie Humbarger [00:10:45]
As I was standing on the steps of the Supreme Court, the most impressive moment to me was when Dr. Alveda King lead us all in the Lord's Prayer right there in the steps of the Supreme Court. But on the other side, the voices were shrill. They were doing--I can't even find the word. The women that took the abortion pill, right there on the steps, for the benefit I guess of the media. But the point I want to make is that it's the same old tired arguments. The other side would not tolerate that in any other case. I think what you're saying is exactly true. It's time.
Cathie Humbarger [00:11:23]
I was especially impressed by Mississippi Solicitor General Scott Stewart. I think he did an excellent job. It was just amazing to hear him argue from a very passionate and compelling position.
Katie Glenn [00:11:37]
Yeah, I think he did a great job. He said he had fun with it. Which, good for him because he's getting married this weekend. I can't even imagine.
Cathie Humbarger [00:11:46]
Oh my goodness!
Katie Glenn [00:11:48]
So, prayers for him and his fiancee.
Cathie Humbarger [00:11:49]
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Katie Glenn [00:11:52]
To have the biggest case of your legal career and your wedding in a two weeks span. God bless them. He says he had fun with and I think, you know as you said, all the science points in one direction. The truth is on our side. In National Review today, Kevin Williamson said, "The pro-life movement is centered around the simple fact that we would not kill a child in the womb for the same reason we would not kill a child outside of the womb."
Cathie Humbarger [00:12:15]
Right.
Katie Glenn [00:12:16]
It is as simple as that. And so when that is the position that you're arguing, you can't have a little fun with it and say, "This is our moment. Enough is enough." And fortunately he got to speak about so many of the reasons why the United States has been wrong about this for 50 years with the justices including things like the fact that our laws are closer to China and North Korea, and Western Europe didn't--
Cathie Humbarger [00:12:42]
Didn't Chief Justice Roberts bring that that point up? I was really impressed by that.
Katie Glenn [00:12:47]
Yeah. Yeah. He did. I was glad to hear him mention that because that's the kind of thing that we talk about all the time. And then the Washington Post is like "That can't be true!" And begrudgingly has to fact check that it is true. That like we're just so out of step with the rest of the world on this that, you know. As you mentioned, like the technology has so improved and I know that there were briefs filed by doctors in this case that showed a side-by-side of an ultrasound in 1973 where, you know, the baby kind of looks like a clump of cells.
Cathie Humbarger [00:13:17]
Yeah, right.
Katie Glenn [00:13:18]
And then an ultrasound in 2021, where you can just see with this 4D ultrasound the curvature of the face, and you can see expressions. Like it's jus--if you didn't believe, like you can look at this ultrasound and see what is the truth. And when that's the side you're on, you know, it's the easier argument to make.
Cathie Humbarger [00:13:36]
Well, one of the arguments that I found curious, that was made by the pro-abortion advocates defending Jackson Women's Health is that the eliminating of the right to abortion will propel women backwards. What do you think about that?
Katie Glenn [00:13:54]
Well, this is so frustrating as a young woman. This idea of the "Reliance Interest." Women rely on the idea that if they get pregnant, they don't want to be pregnant, they can get an abortion. And I think Justice Barrett really pointed out, you know, Indiana's own, things have changed so much. Since the 1990s, every single state has passed a Safe Haven law, so that that child can be safely given up if a person doesn't want to be a parent. The pregnancy center movement was born out of defeat and disappointment of Casey, and now pregnancy centers outnumber abortion clinics like 4 or 5 to 1.
Cathie Humbarger [00:14:29]
Right. And their services are free, I might add, whereas the abortion providers want to see cash or some form of payment when you walk in the door.
Katie Glenn [00:14:39]
Well, and Scott pointed that out. He said "The average price of an abortion in Mississippi is $600. Maybe we could use that money to help women instead of just killing their child."
Cathie Humbarger [00:14:48]
Right.
Katie Glenn [00:14:48]
So, I think there's so much that has changed even when you look at the fact that the abortion rate in this country has been falling for 30 years. It had a high water mark in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It has been falling ever since. What has happened in that time? More women in the industry, more women on the Supreme Court, more women, you know, as breadwinners in their family.
Cathie Humbarger [00:15:10]
Absolutely.
Katie Glenn [00:15:11]
By every metric of the left, women are doing better as the abortion rate has fallen. And the idea that we need it is just totally being rejected, and certainly being rejected by the over 1,000 college students who were out at the Court last week.
Cathie Humbarger [00:15:27]
Absolutely. And they weren't just there for the rally. The Students for Life students were there a couple of days ahead of time to guard the equipment and save the spot. So, hat tip to them as well. And I just want to return for a moment to your comments about Justice Barrett. We are very proud of her from Indiana and I really appreciated her bringing up this Safe Haven issue as our listeners may recall the Safe Haven Baby Boxes part of that whole project started right here in Indiana, and there have been babies safely surrendered in Safe Haven Baby Boxes for probably about five years now. So, in addition to the fact that a woman can relinquish her child to a first responder face-to-face--sometimes that's a bridge too far, so we're very delighted that Indiana was the birthplace, if you will, for the Safe Haven Baby Boxes, which is a very last resort for women who just can't look in the face of an authority and relinquish their child. Just wanted to put that little note in there because Monica Kelsey, the founder is a frequent guest on this program, and the amazing work that Safe Haven Baby Boxes has done certainly deserves a shout out.
Cathie Humbarger [00:16:47]
Our guest today is Katie Glenn, the Government Affairs Council for Americans United for life. You're listening to "I choose life News and Views." Katie,lLet's move on a bit. Is there anything in addition you would like to comment on about the arguments? We want to talk a little bit about what's next after we fully discuss the arguments and your impressions.
Katie Glenn [00:17:10]
Well, I think the last thing I would just point out on the arguments that, you know, we can all work together as pro-lifers to combat was this idea that if you're a pro-life, it must be coming from a religious place. So, "Aren't we just imposing religion?" Which is a comment from Justice Sotomayor, and you know, I know states like Indiana and states all over the country have passed conscience protection laws that protect, not just for religious beliefs, but for moral and ethical beliefs.
Cathie Humbarger [00:17:38]
Right.
Katie Glenn [00:17:38]
And that is a priority of our organization. So, you know, I guess she didn't come out on the steps to see all the secular pro-life groups that had people out there, right there. I think that's something where of course, you know, for so many of us we come to this through our faith, and our faith guides us, but we also have science on our side. We have medical advancement on our side. You know, it's not just our faith. All of that is evidence of why our faith is correct. And I think that's something, we shouldn't be afraid to say.
Cathie Humbarger [00:18:07]
The organization, Atheists for Life was present at the rally. So that should debunk that argument. And I guess I would say again to Justice Sotomayor, "Follow the science, and you'll see that this is not just a religious issue." Although, for those of us who believe, understand that God is the truth giver. He's the Creator, and we can argue for the protection of innocent, human life based on science and the other ways that He has provided, that His truth prevails. The bottom line is that this can't be put in a box of "This as a religious issue. "
Katie Glenn [00:18:47]
When I think now, you know, as we sort of look to what comes next, we'll expect to get a ruling on both of these cases, the Texas case and the Mississippi case, probably sometime in the summer. Our expectation was that if we didn't hear from the Texas case before Dobbs was argued, that perhaps the justices would hold it.
Cathie Humbarger [00:19:10]
That make sense.
Katie Glenn [00:19:10]
[They may decide] both together. I could say that and be wrong tomorrow, but that's what we think will happen. And you know, our work in the states and what states want their law to be in a post-Roe world becomes that much more critical. It's the kind of thing that you know, many of our elected lawmakers, as you said, like were not even alive in 1970. So, they have this opportunity to enact good policies for their state that they just haven't had in a generation.
Cathie Humbarger [00:19:39]
Well, I couldn't agree with you more. So, let's talk a little bit about what happens next. In terms of the argument being returned to the states. Now, I know that there have been states radically left that have passed abortion legislation that would just curl your hair and we expected that from those states. However, on the other side there are states that have been proactive to prepare for this very moment. Could you tell us a little bit about the conditional laws that have been passed in several states? And perhaps, with the legislative sessions beginning in a lot of other states will be enacted in early 2022?
Katie Glenn [00:20:22]
Yeah. Absolutely. So, there are states where they've said, "We want to be ready. We want to be proactive. Whenever the opportunity is presented that we can enact policy in this area throughout pregnancyw We want to have it ready to go." And so they have passed, what we call conditional laws, that are conditioned upon Roe being overturned. And they would go into effect immediately as soon as that case was handed down. If it says that with, you know, no ambiguity, Roe is overturned-- If there is some confusion, it may take a bit longer for, like, State Attorney Generals to dig into that. But the idea is, the policy is already on the books, so that rather than your existing law to 24 weeks or 20 weeks or whatever it is, remaining the law in your state, that you would be able to prevent those abortions earlier in the pregnancy as soon as possible. And I know Kentucky is doing something like this. Kansas has a constitutional amendment on the ballot coming up soon. I was trying something similar. I think Ohio has got its own couple of things going.
Cathie Humbarger [00:21:25]
Great.
Katie Glenn [00:21:25]
So, a lot of your neighbors states have been thinking about this.
Cathie Humbarger [00:21:29]
I think that now is the time to be prepared for whatever the decision is handed down in June. Many of these state legislators are part-time. So their sessions begin in January 2022, and they may adjourn before the decision is even handed down, which would mean that they would have to call a special session and get everybody back in the state house to take action based on the decision or wait until the next legislative session. And either option, to me seems very dangerous for the babies that could be saved in the meantime.
Katie Glenn [00:22:08]
I live in Florida, and I've seen tons of writing saying, "Florida is going to be the abortion destination of the South," because several of our neighbors states, have been more proactive on this. Whereas, for us, we would still have abortion through viability around 24 weeks. So, you know, I don't really want to live in an abortion destination state and my elected officials are going to hear about that.
Cathie Humbarger [00:22:32]
Right? Well and I think now is the time for all of us to find our voices and make certain that the legislators in our states know what our position is, and the danger that this is to many babies that might be saved if we take proactive action. Well, Katie again, your comments have been so helpful. It's difficult for those of us who don't operate in the legal realm to ubderstand the intricacies of both these cases. And again, I asked our listeners to please continue to pray that the Justices would grant favor to unborn boys and girls, and their mothers, because their mothers are victims as well. And we look forward to having you back, Katie, as things progress. What is the protocol for the Supreme Court now? The arguments were heard about a week ago as we record this. And as I understand, there might have been some immediate discussions among the Justices on Friday. And is that accurate?
Katie Glenn [00:23:35]
Yes, so they had their first conference on this case last Friday. And so they took an initial vote of where the Justices are. Historically, they've been pretty tight-lipped. So we haven't had leaks and just for the integrity of the Court, I hope that continue.
Cathie Humbarger [00:23:49]
Sure.
Katie Glenn [00:23:49]
But it's likely that we won't know for many months.
Katie Glenn [00:23:53]
So, do they continue to deliberate even though they've taken that initial vote on where they stand after the arguments?
Katie Glenn [00:24:00]
Yes, well in famously in Casey, Justice Kennedy was flipped. The initial vote in conference was to overturn Roe. And then Justice Kennedy ended up changing his vote, and so they ended up with the plurality opinion. And you know, my colleague Clark Forsythe has written a great book called "Abuse of Discretion," where he writes about all the intrigue that took place in the Roe Court to end up with that decision.
Cathie Humbarger [00:24:26]
What is your take on some of the threats that are coming from the radical abortion supporter side of this issue. They're threatening some kind of retaliation. And we've certainly seen all kinds of rioting and that kind of thing. Do you anticipate that will happen if there's a favorable ruling for the pro-life side?
Katie Glenn [00:24:46]
Well, I think there will be a lot of people who are upset because they feel like something has been taken away from them. Even as we saw in Texas, you know, there were like two weeks of protests and people filed a bunch of lawsuits against Texas Right to Life and some of the pro-life groups because they were mad at them. But things have really quieted down. People will get back to work. They'll get back to their life. And they will order their lives around the world without abortion, which we think for so many reasons is a better world.
Cathie Humbarger [00:25:14]
Absolutely. And I would be remiss if I didn't give you an opportunity, Katie, to tell us about the Americans United for Life website, what resources are there, and how people can follow ALU's analysis as this unfolds.
Katie Glenn [00:25:30]
So, you can check us out on social media or aul.org. We've got a State Spotlight page where we've got, you know, every single state has its own page with all of the deficiency reports that we've got, with all the information about existing state laws, and our recommendations for what laws the state could pass. Indiana's in really good shape. You're at number five on our Life List, which is our ranking of the states. But there's always more that everybody can do. We've got ideas even for our number one state. So we're happy to work on that with y'all if you want to check it out. Share it, you know, we really want to be a resource for ideas and strategies, and help every single state. For 50 years, we have been a 50 state organization. And so, we will continue to do that.
Cathie Humbarger [00:26:16]
And as with most pro-life organizations, it is always helpful to have donation, to support your work. I'm sure that you don't have money pouring in from the government, like maybe Planned Parenthood and some other folks.
Katie Glenn [00:26:30]
We do not.
Cathie Humbarger [00:26:32]
There's an opportunity for you to donate at that website as well. That's aul.org, very simple. Please visit, if for no other reason, than to stay informed and find out what's going on from a very, very credible source. Katie, thank you so much for being with us today, and we look forward to more conversations as all of these Court proceedings unfold.
Katie Glenn [00:26:57]
Thanks.
Scott Kumpf [00:27:02]
In preparation for this potentially momentous Supreme Court decision, some in California are attempting to make that state an abortion destination, possibly even forcing California taxpayers to foot the bill for travel, lodging, and even the deadly procedures themselves should individuals from across the country infiltrate The Golden State for such a dark purpose. Lila Rose of live-action describes this effort as an attempt to make California quote, "America's baby slaughterhouse," end quote. As of this recording, no actual legislation has been introduced. We will see what happens. You've been listening to "I Choose Life News and Views." If you have questions about this program, or if you'd like to support the fight for life, please call, 260-471-1849, or go to, Ichooselife.org. Because without the right to life, no other rights matter.
